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Sharing => Macros and Plugins => Topic started by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 09:09:39 AM

Title: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 09:09:39 AM
Well lets brainstorm a little and do not use to much technical launguage
Im dutch i dont understand everything :P

Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 12:13:53 PM
Sure, I'll keep that in mind! Let me compile some stuff about this idea first, then we can expand on the material macro concept.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 12:21:33 PM
Yeah you do so  i will check this every time you reply
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
First of all the purpose of this macro:

1. To provide a versatile terrain material to simulate various types of natural substances, like sand, rock, vegetation and snow.
2. To provide a faked representation of advanced material features like Bump, specularity, ambient occlusion, and grain (roughness)
3. We can use mask input to apply multiple materials with different properties to the world.
4. To have two methods for every parameter, the traditional coloring methods and file inputs.
5. To go for realistic looking materials fast.

So let's begin discussion, but please keep it to the point.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 12:42:18 PM
Yeah i get that, its fast that threads dwell of from the root

Anyways

The main purpose should be texturing
So how is we going to add this bump and grain
The rest is pretty easy to do
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 12:48:22 PM
grain is simple, just use a high frequency noise and a perlin cloud, and combine them as a mask. use that for color distribution. about bump i'm not sure just yet. I'll get the specifics here as soon as I get my machine back from wm  :x
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 12:51:19 PM
Just focus on the material substance for now, terrain features should be ignored in the first iteration. If anyone else has any idea they can chime in too.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 12:54:36 PM
So maybe add multiple selectors to one chooser
Then have a advanced perlin( because its parameters) to choose between the two
And have the selectors have colorizers(made specially for this macro) attached to them
And do a pull up on both lines so when theres no files selected it lets you choose colors?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 12:58:19 PM
Yes that may work. But how am I going to use it myself if you make it? I cannot use any of your macros without crashing my world.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 12:59:26 PM
Dit you update to 2.6? :o
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 01:00:49 PM
why selectors though? we can add a mask input to the macro, then the user can choose what type of selectors they wanna use. and no I didn't update yet.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 01:08:26 PM
My macros are made with 2.6 thats why its crashes

So you want selectors outside the macro...
Im getting confused a little...
Im sorry

So mask inputs for selection types
Masks for file inputs?

Right
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 02, 2014, 01:38:46 PM
Since we are working for a material rather than a coverage map, selector can be inserted in input ports or masks. I'll get back tomorrow on this, it's 2 am here. Maybe when I try something on this line I can be more helpful.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 02, 2014, 02:38:50 PM
So you actually thinking about a material editor kinda thing?
To create materials you want to use right there in thw macro parameters itself
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 01:24:18 AM
Yes, that is exactly what I mean!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 02:14:45 AM
Thats an ambitious project

Talking shaders
Types of blending
Types of falloff
Reflectiveness
Bump
Shadows
Normal maps
Ambient

I thought about it alot
Cause i use it in 3ds max alot

But its also means a lot of parameters and a way to switch views
Wich i already developed...check a box and you see the mask
Uncheck it and ull see endresults
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 02:25:35 AM
You did ask for an idea! I've had this one since I started texturing thread http://forum.world-machine.com/index.php?topic=2537.0 . I realized while working that texturing is impractical in world machine, due to lack of texturing tools. That was when I started experimenting with a procedural material concept. But since I'm not as experienced with macro parameters and such, I figured you would have a better chance at implementing this one.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 02:43:59 AM
Alright then you need to tell me alot about how you did some things
And we have to figure out a way to make at least 2 materials happen
In one macro so you have option to blend those layers like photoshop
And get it to shoot it to the next and have that overlay on top of the next
So you can make any material you want

Else parameters would get to hundreds
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 02:48:13 AM
Better idea would be to keep the macro focused on just one material, blending can be done the traditional way outside the macro. For example, let the macro produce a single sand material (let that be as complicated as you like, but keep parameters for the user simple), then use that with deposition or flow mask, such that for all purposes, it's a file texture!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 03:36:05 AM
Okr one material at a time...
Thats astablished

Next up
Add noice is very abstract and repetitive
Add posibility gives graine but it makes pixel like noice
Blur that to get texture in?

Also how many inputs should there be and what are the uses of them

And the bump, isnt that going to be spikey?


Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: Onkelpoe on June 03, 2014, 04:12:41 AM
Maybe try:

Filter Device - Simple Displacement
Available in all Editions


The Displacement device acts horizontally on the heightfield to push around or smear pixels. There are multiple names for this operation; you will see it commonly called Distortion, Warping, or Displacement; they are all names for the same thing. Displacement can produce some wild looking terrain; rock can seem to be pulled like taffy or be bowed and wavy. The kind of effect that the Displacement device produces is highly dependant on the features of the terrain connected to the second input.

Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 04:23:45 AM
I think WFab means vertical bumpmapping, instead of displacing sideways
He wants it to look like you can touch it.

Like bumps in any other 3d programs that have Material Editors
Wich should be verry hard to do but over vast planes it could be difficult to scale
Up and to the sides
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: Onkelpoe on June 03, 2014, 05:13:03 AM
Hmmm, to be honest - WM is not "the go-to-app" for this. Would be really hard to do, if possible anyways...
So taking WM output into Vue, Terragen, Mudbox, you name it is the way to go, I thing.
Trying this in WM - I dont know if itīs worth, you know?!

But good luck with it.... aaaand all other projects (snow, sand, ...)  :D

Cheers!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 05:56:35 AM
Oke so i tryed a bump and diffuse map together but i get really spikey peaks in them
Even after clamp,bias gain,eq altogether combined with a constant to make it flat
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 07:42:39 AM
All we need from high frequency noise is their mask, to drive a 2-3 color distribution. Spikes are irrelevant, they only show up in 3d, Bumps are 2d color image overlay for the default diffuse color.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 07:47:10 AM
I've seen some people do wonders with this kind of macros, but they do not share their device graphs due to production specific usage. And don't say this won't benefit the regular wm user, a simple to use material macro can do wonders with your project. Look at basic coverage macro, how useful it can be sometimes.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 07:52:25 AM
Share some screens of your graph so I can help wherever I can.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 08:21:25 AM
Thats true it would help a lot of people with texturing

I just dont know were to start
Advanced perlin to color generators add noise and blur it

Be a bit specific...i get confused with this very easily

I build what you have in mind (if i can)
But something needs to be clear to me

Plus it was just a test...nothing more
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 08:25:29 AM
Ive been bussy with WM these past weeks...never have i touched this program before
So i do not know everything or every name for whatever
Just to be clear :P
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 08:27:12 AM
If I was so clear, I would have built it by now. And I have uses for it ready as well. Just start with a good diffuse architecture, like color distribution. If it works and has all variables in place like file texture and color, then we can build on that. Start simple. By the looks of your macros, you are more qualified that me.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 08:45:25 AM
Alright ill try something,cant promise anything
Ill do my best

Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 03, 2014, 09:00:02 AM
Sure, that's all we can do at this point!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 03, 2014, 05:32:17 PM
So i tried to make something
I had file inputs with just simple textures of stones and gravel in them
And i noticed that you cant use filters on a bitmap
So i started to split with red green and blue...had all filters connected to the corresponding scalar
And it worked
I also got to the specular tone of things :D worked well

Only downside is that WM crashed and i lost the file so ill try and replicate the scene ASAP
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 05:48:06 AM
I tryed to replicate what i made yesterday

And i actually got the same results i had
I have a flowgraph attached, nothing fancy and
unconverted,so its not an actual macro yet
Wich is easier to adjust

I dont know if its a start or even anything u are looking for
Just let me know what you think

(Ps: Gain Eq and other filters can be modified and other filters can be added
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 07:46:07 AM
So heres a screenshot of reflection (faked) im still wondering if theres a way to makebit actually reflect tge surroundings
Its also very concentrated and in a very pre mature state
Im working on expansion and flow of the actually reflaction type

Hope this looks a bit nice...if not then...well nothing :P
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: Onkelpoe on June 04, 2014, 08:12:05 AM
Did you guys checked out "BCORE 2.0 Alpha0.2" macro? Maybe it could help, dont know!

Cheers!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 08:35:53 AM
You mean buzzcores overlay?
Thats not really that fancy its just an overlay
I know how to create an overlay
 :P
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: Onkelpoe on June 04, 2014, 08:52:37 AM
Just thought it could be of interest.... Read something about Ambient and bump settings...

Any Chance you work in the sand macro?
Or is this Main Project now?

Cheers
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 08:54:56 AM
Every projwct gets my attention
But im slowing down untill i get the licence wich ahould bw tomorrow or later next week
Btw it looks like that macro makes some nice sand aswell
Did you try it already for your canyons?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:00:09 AM
Sorry to be the buzzkill here, but you are going a bit off route here. Although I like how you are going with the file input, but the main architecture I'll try to explain more clearly.

1. If <no file input> --->goto <Procedural colors><fake bump><AO><Specular>
2. If <File input> --->goto <apply file as-it-is>
3. If <Mask or Alpha input> --->goto <apply guide to (1)>

Hope I made it clear. I'm not too good at explaining stuff. Learning though!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:04:31 AM
What you made though could make a great macro in itself! Image editing for textures is a nice feature in itself!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:08:46 AM
Thats a clear explaination
I was just trying something extra
Though i dont know how to do this FAKE bump
And i do not really know what specular is

(Sounds stupid for someone whos into 3d,but im just not all of techniqual launguage)

What is it that specular should do?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
A specular is simply the reflection of light source on the object, In our case light source is Sky (we can specify a colorizer gradient as the sky color), and terrain is the object (although specular is not necessary, but for wet sand or rocks near water level, it could be helpful).

For Bump I have an idea, which I'm yet to experiment with. Once the diffuse part is complete and I see it's architecture, then we can tackle bump.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:17:53 AM
Alright thanks for clearing this up
I will work on this today

The specular shouldnt be to hard, maybe lightmap maker?
To actually get sun and sky color in you specular
It also deals with the angle and elevation
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:20:50 AM
Yes exactly, lightmap maker gets the sky color perfectly, but a colorizer gives user control over dramatic scenarios like golden sunset etc.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
So i do not use the sun color of the lightmapmaker?
Add a graduent colorizer in the mix for more control
Also this lightmapmaker is not the same one as for the AO module?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:25:26 AM
Why not both! :) Think big!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:26:52 AM
I have started work on this as well, but my speed is slow and I'm colorblind, so no help on diffuse mind you! 8)
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
You colorblind? :shock:
Are you serious?
Anyway i will try different setups with this
See what works the best
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:33:45 AM
Hehehe, yeah I'm serious... don't worry, about 28% men and 2% women are in fact!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:37:05 AM
You still see colors right?

We will make this thing work,just worried about the fake bump
Cause i tryed already..like i said it makes spikes
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 09:43:09 AM
Yes I see the colors, but when red and green (any shade or mixture) appear together, they change into a same color (like orange or yellow) and I cannot tell what it really is. Purple I have never seen, apart from that everything is good, I have learnt to believe numbers and color codes rather than how they look.

Bumps will come later, I'll help you with that. Just get the diffuse working, like mixing colors to make it realistic looking. this part seems to be the core, rest we can derive from diffuse color output.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 09:55:45 AM
Yes its all good ill try to keep it in mind
And i will try different  setups and maybe add some features iff they needed
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 10:01:45 AM
Come to think about it
Have you opened my high ress colorizer?
Mayve thats something to start with
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:19:48 PM
So heres the flowgraph for now
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 01:22:07 PM
Let me install the basic version of new wm build, then you can send the macro sample. That would be much easier I guess.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:24:41 PM
What do you mean? The high res colorizer?
Its in the library
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 01:26:49 PM
No, I have that one. I meant the new one.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:28:59 PM
Ow yeah its not finished yet,
I will send you after this message ill attach it to a new post
I dont know its kinda like you ment it to be
I sertaibly hope so

And why install 2.6 basic?
Why no update to 2.6
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:29:43 PM
Ow and paremeters arent all attached
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 01:31:34 PM
I just have my quirks with updating. I like to know if the update is really necessary before I do it.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:33:22 PM
So heres the dev file wich is temporary
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:35:17 PM
Aha well ive updated to
I will update to pro this week so then i can start building like i should
And not do everything twice over and over again
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 01:53:36 PM
Well I checked both macros, the hi-res colorizer and the new macro. They appear to be the same. You won't be able to get the material like look with this one. These are for erosion based coverage.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
I am not done yet
But i do not no what you are looking for then
I did what you said i just didnt modify the advanced perlin(noise yet)
Can you send an example of what your going for,cause im working with words
And my own imagination right now :P
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:01:02 PM
Also erosion based?

I dont understand i used just a advanced perlin for test as an heightfield
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
And this is just for 1 material
So you need 2 with a chooser then to blend
I thought thats what you wanted
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 02:07:14 PM
That is what basic coverage macro does perfectly, why would we need a new macro for the same purpose. 1 material is all I need, but with controls that mimic a typical material setup. what you have there is a fine example, but I can't get it to make a rock color I want without using presets.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
I'll work on an example tomorrow, my system is running red hot! It's been running for 5 days.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:10:11 PM
I know what you want
Just told you i wasnt finished...its a differnt setup from a normal overlay
The rock color should be mixed...not like an overlay does use 1 color
I get that
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:11:12 PM
Alright ill look forward to that example then

Make sure ill get it right...it will look nicely
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 02:13:24 PM
Sure you'll get it, I'm just not good with macros, so let's see if that sticks. I'll try the mixing of colors too in the meantime  :x
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:38:27 PM
You want to mix 2 or 3 colors
Or 2 files?
Mix them together however you like by noice
Then have two of these devices (lets say 2)
To make an overlay happening?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 04, 2014, 02:42:52 PM
I'll make a skeleton example later, so you can fill in the diffuse stuff in it and make presets like you always do. I'll at least build parameters as a guide.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 04, 2014, 02:49:41 PM
Alright dont forget to fill in a temporary selection type in enumeration
Else i wont be able to open it

Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 05, 2014, 02:08:01 PM
It seems I too have no luck with this macro. Although I reduced the parameters to some basic few controls, I never got the look I wanted. All I got was mixing two colors with a noise function, add grain to it, control grain distribution and some black spots (bump tries). Good thin wm crashed and told me this was a misguided idea from the start!

Lets try your file texture direction first, and when we get the parameter scroll bar in wm, we can get back to this material macro.   :(
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:10:17 PM
Have you seen my parameter technique?
Maybe thats an idea
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 05, 2014, 02:13:53 PM
Still trying to decipher that!  :P
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:16:28 PM
You make a second macro
Only full of parameters

Set outputs to any ...link to parameters...send to main macro input

Connect to the switches and selectors you want them to control
And youll have 30 to 35 parameters extra

Its just that you have 2 macros that are linked together by there in and outputs
They form one together
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:22:45 PM
Anyways u need alot of parameters for this kind of macro??
How many did you have anyways?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 05, 2014, 02:31:50 PM
32 on paper, got about 13 in wm before it crashed.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:34:57 PM
I can easily fit 35 in my screen...
Anyways so the color mixing wasnt working?
Maybe we should do
Advanced perlin input to a snowmachine
Wouldnt that give some additional bump when we select no angles
Or let a file input take over if needed?
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:41:50 PM
Something like this?
I know it isnt much but its a start
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 05, 2014, 02:44:24 PM
I work on a laptop buddy, much smaller screen! Snow machine method may or may not work, I think file texture method is good for now, until new coloring methods appear in world machine. Still I ain't giving up on this!
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:48:24 PM
It wont appear if those ideas arent build :o
Dont give up that easy
My snow coverage crashed and corrupted like 16 times and i still rebuilt that thing
Also trying bigger sizes now and more options

I wuz no quiter 8)
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 05, 2014, 02:53:55 PM
Who said I gave up! 8)
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: e2clipse on June 05, 2014, 02:55:08 PM
Haha oke wel can you give some reference to what you are aiming to get out of this macro?
Maybe i can have a look on my own...
Leave the bump for later...first diffuse and controls
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on April 29, 2016, 05:07:03 AM
Anyone still following this, a new coloring macro by shinsoj is coming up. I'll be posting a new thread when it's uploaded and available. It's very similar to what we intended here. Gonna be a paid macro though. Stay tuned to the macro section of the forum for post about it.
Title: Re: new thread regarding WFabs macro idea
Post by: WFab on June 29, 2016, 05:33:00 AM
A note to the guests trying to post on this thread repeatedly.

You can post in the guest forum category without registering for an account. Mention my username, and I will respond when I see it.