Author Topic: Crash using any 8k world ?  (Read 24012 times)

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jgwinner

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« on: August 17, 2005, 08:38:30 PM »
I tried a simple perlin to output device 'machine' (2 nodes) and it still crashed.

I have 2G of RAM, and I've tried both memory options.

Anyone else having the same issue?

It's trying to access an invalid memory location.

Unhandled exception at 0x7c910a0a in World Machine.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0xfffffffd.

Here's the windows report:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>
<DATABASE>
<EXE NAME="World Machine.exe" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_PRIVACY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="uninst.exe" SIZE="34673" CHECKSUM="0xC109F923" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" LINK_DATE="02/10/2003 17:58:56" UPTO_LINK_DATE="02/10/2003 17:58:56" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="World Machine.exe" SIZE="811520" CHECKSUM="0xF18786F3" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.0" FILE_DESCRIPTION="World Machine Main Application" PRODUCT_NAME="World Machine" FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.0" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="World Machine.exe" INTERNAL_NAME="World Machine.exe" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="(c) Stephen Schmitt.  All rights reserved." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x1" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:11:57" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:11:57" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="plugins\devices\CustomDev.dll" SIZE="598016" CHECKSUM="0x8D696A5E" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1,0,0" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Std Devices for WM" COMPANY_NAME="Stephen Schmitt ([email protected])" PRODUCT_NAME="The World Machine" INTERNAL_NAME="CustomDev.DLL" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2003" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x1" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:20" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:20" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="plugins\devices\CustomRegPlugins.dll" SIZE="258048" CHECKSUM="0x6DB8E6F3" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Registered-Only Devices for WM" COMPANY_NAME="Stephen Schmitt ([email protected])" PRODUCT_NAME="The World Machine" FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="CustomRegPlugins.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="CustomRegPlugins.dll" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2003" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:06" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:06" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="plugins\devices\ParamPlugins.dll" SIZE="233472" CHECKSUM="0x1034F718" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Scalar Devices for WM" COMPANY_NAME="Stephen Schmitt ([email protected])" PRODUCT_NAME=" ParamPlu Dynamic Link Library" FILE_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="ParamPlu.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="ParamPlu" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2003" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:01" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:01" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="plugins\devices\StdDev.dll" SIZE="249856" CHECKSUM="0xDF1A44F6" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Std Devices for WM" COMPANY_NAME="Stephen Schmitt ([email protected])" PRODUCT_NAME=" StdDev Dynamic Link Library" FILE_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="StdDev.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="StdDev" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2003" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:27" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:27" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="plugins\devices\StdRegPlguins.dll" SIZE="176128" CHECKSUM="0x67E4E84D" BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" PRODUCT_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Registered-Only Devices for WM" COMPANY_NAME="Stephen Schmitt ([email protected])" PRODUCT_NAME=" StdRegDe Dynamic Link Library" FILE_VERSION="1, 0, 0, 1" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="StdRegDe.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="StdRegDe" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright (C) 2003" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x0" LINKER_VERSION="0x0" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.0.1" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.0.1" LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:09" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/09/2005 03:12:09" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
<EXE NAME="ntdll.dll" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_THISFILEONLY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="ntdll.dll" SIZE="708096" CHECKSUM="0x9D20568" BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" FILE_DESCRIPTION="NT Layer DLL" COMPANY_NAME="Microsoft Corporation" PRODUCT_NAME="Microsoft® Windows® Operating System" FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="ntdll.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="ntdll.dll" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="© Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x40004" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xAF2F7" LINKER_VERSION="0x50001" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" LINK_DATE="08/04/2004 07:56:36" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/04/2004 07:56:36" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
<EXE NAME="kernel32.dll" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_THISFILEONLY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="kernel32.dll" SIZE="983552" CHECKSUM="0x4CE79457" BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Windows NT BASE API Client DLL" COMPANY_NAME="Microsoft Corporation" PRODUCT_NAME="Microsoft® Windows® Operating System" FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="kernel32" INTERNAL_NAME="kernel32" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="© Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x40004" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xFF848" LINKER_VERSION="0x50001" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.2180" LINK_DATE="08/04/2004 07:56:36" UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/04/2004 07:56:36" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
</DATABASE>

Anonymous

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2005, 10:00:40 PM »
Note: as the subject states, this is with an 8k x 8k world size - 4k seems to work fine.  

It's worse with imported .ter or .tga files - in this case, just reading the file will sometimes cause a crash.  The file size is 4k square.

       == John ==

JavaJones

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2005, 11:32:55 PM »
I can't say I've done extensive 8k testing, but what I did do was not problematic. What other memory intensive applications do you run on this system? What does memory use look like in Task Manager during this?

- Oshyan

Anonymous

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 09:50:58 AM »
There was 500+M of Physcal RAM available and almost 3G of virtual - available.  WM wasn't using much.

  I have a 2G system.

I've been playing with it and if I break things down into discrete steps it seems to be working better.

== JOhn ==

Anonymous

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 11:07:42 AM »
Actually, I had the numbers reversed, Task Manager had 700-800M used and 1.3M available, when I was getting these crashes.

Here's the weird thing though - right now, it seems to be semi-working.  I tried the larger world I had earlier that couldn't even do the file input single node "build to current device" without crashing, and it just recalculated everything.  So this seems to come and go.  Not sure why I was having such consistent issues yesterday, with any world.

I'll do more testing.

However, nothing should hard crash - if it's out of memory, it should say.  

== John ==

JavaJones

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2005, 03:14:07 PM »
I agree, applications should ideally let you know when they run out of memory and handle it gracefully. Unfortunately it's not always up to the application developer - a lot of that stuff is handled by the OS and the dev can't do much to change its behavior.

You might have missed my question about what other memory-intensive apps you use on your machine btw. It sounds like something of a workhorse (with 2GB of memory, etc.). What's the main use for the system?

- Oshyan

Anonymous

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 09:25:58 AM »
Right now it's a baby machine, I'll go to 4G soon :)

I didn't miss your note, I didn't have any other memory intensive apps running.  

One thing I think is that I was losing the memory settings when it would crash (even after saving, oddly), so I think sometimes I forgot to switch back to the memory conservation.  usually it would then tell you it didn't have enough memory, but it looks like sometimes it just crashes.

It looks like this thing is hard coded to not touch swap space at all, to only use physical RAM, and it crashes if it touches, ever so slightly, the top of physical RAM.  Even if it doesn't comit it.  Every time I've had a crash I've had more than 500Meg of RAM available.  It looks like it might have needed 700, after I closed some IE windows and shut down some running services (Java, etc).

The earliest patent on Virtual Memory was:
3292152 Dec., 1966 Barton 365/49.

So we're using 1966 computing technology here.

       == John ==

Remnant

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 09:37:29 AM »
WM uses the standard C library memory functions, which should have no problem hitting swap space since the virtual memory management is an OS function and not a program-level function.

When does it crash? Immediately? Partway through the build? Only after clicking OK to exit the stats?
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Fil

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2005, 10:15:30 AM »
I replicated this crash on a XP pro 512Ram with a constant generator and a file output (the fastet wayt to do it), though not super-consistently: 3 out of 4 times it crashed, but once it just gave me an "out of memory" message and no crash.. Possibly had something to do with some previous build I may have made at a different size.
Crash occurs a while after the File Output is processing its input (if write every build is selected), but before it writes anything to disk..  It also crashes a bit after you press the "write output to disk" button. The timing suggests me it is something right before writing. But no file is even created.
Fil.

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 12:41:51 PM »
What I was getting at is that it might be a hardware-related issue, and not something necessarily specific to WM, assuming you haven't run any other memory-intensive apps. I did not mean *resident* apps, I meant *any* other memory-intensive applications such as rendering programs, etc. In other words is this a machine that has already gone through a rigorous Prime95/Memtest86/etc. burn-in cycle, or at least been stress tested on other demanding applications? If not, although Fil has now semi-duplicated the issue (which I am so far unable to do), it may be worth running some diagnostic and/or stress test utils like those mentioned above just to be sure it's not hardware. I don't mean to suggest WM is surely without fault, only that until others can duplicate it reliably, it would be useful at least to eliminate the hardware you're running it on as a potential point of failure.

- Oshyan

Fil

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2005, 01:04:15 PM »
Quote from: JavaJones
Fil has now semi-duplicated the issue (which I am so far unable to do)

:shock: oh!.. hmm, I'll try running it on more machines then..
Fil.

andytw

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2005, 02:35:25 PM »
I've tried running Fil's test on two machines, both will build 8K terrains but both crash (or give a "world machine has encountered a problem and needs to close" message) when I attempt to write the output to disk.

It's only a guess but it may be the related to the issue that allows some people to use 8K terrains with Terragen while others get error messages (not that it helps much as we could never track down the Terragen problem if I recall).

FYI machines are:

P4, 3.0GHz, 2GB RAM, XP Pro SP2

AMD64 3500+ 1GB RAM, XP Pro SP2

RedSquare

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2005, 02:43:16 PM »
Hello folks,

Having read the above I set up for the 8kx8k never gone beyond 2kx2k before so I thought interesting, I'll have a go.  Now, to start I had 49  :oops:  processes running in the background.  I only have 512 Mb ram. So oft I went.



So far so good, but then I clicked the OK button and waited for the 3D image to appear main screen......... but on the way I got this....



Now I've seen this before, when processing a 2kx2k terrain but it came and went so quickly, I couldn't make out what it was before.  Any way.
Up comes the 3D which I rotated around ok. Then I wrote the file to Terragen folder, OK.  However when I click ok after the write it went......



So I closed down WM and opened up Terragen-reg

Everything ok although a tad long winded.



Did a quick preview render, but only this happened..........




Then this.............



Of course this may be a Terragen fault but if anyone wants to try the .ter I'll zip it here.

Cheers
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Fil

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2005, 03:08:29 PM »
Well, the above crashes I mentioned, were all realated to 8kx8k 8bit TGA files. .TER works ok, slow, memory-intensive, but no crashes with TER files.

crashes with: TGA, BMP, RAW, PovRay TGA, leveler .ter
doesn't crash: terragen .TER, r16, r32

Though, at the second time I try to save a file that didn't crash, it crashes.
Fil.

RedSquare

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 04:07:31 PM »
Well although eventually the file loaded into Terragen at the correct size, no way would it render it.  I created another WM terrain this time using a different perlin seed.  Result it did not crash nor did I get the pretty green screen that I had before.  Again loaded file into Terragen OK, but then it dawned on me that my maximum terragen world size preset is 4kx4k.  So I down sized to 4x4 and both files rendered OK.  Steps back gracefully and disappears in to the haze.  :)
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JavaJones

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2005, 04:28:22 PM »
Ah! I tend to always be outputting in .ter, so that would explain why I hadn't gotten the error yet. I don't have resources free to test it right now (rendering an animation), but I will do so as soon as I can and see if I can duplicate it. It seems reasonably proven by now though. Perhaps a problem in the file output routines?

Redsquare, the error you're getting in Terragen is the "normal" error it gives when your machine is unable to render 8193 terrains, and it is a Terragen-specific thing, nothing to do with the terrain other than it being "oversized". No one yet knows why some machines can render them and some can't. It seems to be at least partly resource related, but some 2GB machines can't do it, while even some 1GB machines can. There does not seem to be a visible pattern yet.

- Oshyan

Rhalph

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2005, 05:01:35 PM »
Quote from: JavaJones
Ah! I tend to always be outputting in .ter, so that would explain why I hadn't gotten the error yet.


The .ter file can crash... I managed to crash WM while trying to write the output in terragen format.

jgwinner

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2005, 07:33:57 PM »
It may be worse with TGA files - I had switched over to reading RAW files as input at one point I think, as I was splitting my big world machine up into parts, and you need to avoid TGA in that case.

It's not hardware related, this machine gets a pretty hard workout most of the time, and it's been fine.  I'm a kernel / services level C++ developer, so I brought up WM in the debugger one time it crashed:

Unhandled exception at 0x7c910a0a in World Machine.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0xfffffffd.

(this was at the start of the thread, along with the full MS 'send the error' business).

The 0xfffffffd location usually means something returned a bad value, and then that bad value wasn't checked and used for subsequent memory references.  

This may all be a moot point, however - I resized to a 4k x 8k terrain, started a world with only one big time sucker (erosion) and it's less than 1/4 of the way through the erosion step after 23 hours.

This is my main modeling machine so I'll probably have to kill the job, but I can let it run tonight too.  I'm going away for business in September, maybe I'll try a 4kx8k run then.

This is with an Athlon 64, 3700 San Diego core (the big L2 cache).

At least it hasn't crashed, however.  So maybe having a TGA input or output is part of the issue.

    == John ==

jgwinner

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2005, 09:44:42 PM »
Dang, with a 4k map it blew up again.  WM says memory used is 1539Meg, TM say VM size is 1,602,824.  

Physical Memory has 1,349,080 available.  Page File is at 1.83G, limit is 4G, peak is only 2000812.

It was building an arithmetic combiner.  Hard to believe that takes 1.3G?

Same spot in the code:

Unhandled exception at 0x7c910a0a in World Machine.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0xfffffffd.

It looks like a 0xfffffffd is being passed into an NT routine .. specifically RTLSizeHeap.   Every crash seems to be the same loc.  

I tracked this down, and it's a retail (normal) XP call to HeapSize.  So something is passing in a 0xFFFFFFFd into the HeapSize function.

I'm going to guess WM is trying to allocate some memory, then checking to see how large it was - but it didnt' allocate.

== John ==

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Crash using any 8k world ?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2005, 10:12:43 PM »
Hi John,

This is definitely a memory allocation issue -- or more accurately, an out-of-memory issue happening. Part of the problem is that even with a very high-ram system with lots of swap space, in 2000/XP as you probably know 2GB is the limit of address space for an application. Between all of the heightfields being allocated, WM's required memory for standard operations, memory required to store 3D mesh vertices, and heap fragmentation, a device world using 1539MB of RAM could very easily push the total used ram close enough to the 2GB limit that malloc() is failing, and it doesn't matter how much physical RAM or virtual swap is available.

The thread has had various things discussed in it; to clarify does it also do this with Mem Conservation switched on? In Mem Conservation mode, maximum memory used should be (Size of a HF)*Number of Output Nodes at a given depth*Number of Independant paths through the network.  This number is usually much, much less than without, and it should solve the problem.

Mem Conserv is currently a per-session (not persistent) setting, which is probably contributing to the confusion. If you're still having this problem even with it on, I would be definitely interested in seeing the world file that is causing this; you can email it to [email protected]


World Machine is an application that would definitely benefit from the transition to 64bit windows. 1.1 Should bring some better error handling and detection of memory-wary areas, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem -- that WM really needs more address space for large nets at high res.
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